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June 16[edit]

First performance of Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen in Russia[edit]

Re-named section heading for better archiving purposes MinorProphet (talk) 09:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Calling all Perfect Wagnerites. Full confession: I'm currently singing in the chorus of a professional production of Die Götterdämmerung. Anyway, I was listening to Glazunov's orchestral fantasy/symphonic poem The Sea (Russian: Mope), Op. 28, which he wrote in 1889 aged around 24. I was struck by some fairly obvious musical references (WP:OR?) to Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. My question is: when was The Ring first performed in Russia? I haven't come across any obvious answer. I can read Russian. Details of theatre, soloists, conductor etc. would be welcome. Russian Wikipedia seems not to be forthcoming. The first complete performance of The Ring cycle took place in August 1876 in the Bayreuth Festspielhaus. Glazunov may have already seen the orchestral scores before any performances had taken place in Russia: the full score of Die Walküre had been published in 1874, and those of Siegfried and Götterdämmerung in 1876.[1]. Any further info on Wagner's influence on Glazunov would be welcome. MinorProphet (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I note in passing from his article that "Belyayev took Glazunov on a trip to Western Europe in 1884. Glazunov met Liszt in Weimar . . . .", so he may have seen Ring performances in Germany and would certainly have been able to obtain a copy of the score.

This reference says that Das Rheingold was first performed (as part of The Ring) in Russia, in St. Petersberg, on 11 March 1889. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.136.217 (talk) 05:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"When only 19, he was taken on a trip to Western Europe and Africa. On the way back to St. Petersburg, Glazunov met Liszt in Weimar and heard a performance of Parsifal at Bayreuth."^[2] But, "Continuing their pilgrimage the two Russian friends visited Spain, Africa and finally Bayreuth, where they heard "Parsifal". Wagner's influence upon Glazounov does not date, however, from this time, but from Neumann's performances of the "Ring" at Petrograd in 1889."^[3] --Lambiam 17:33, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Straight from the mouth of the horse:

Über Genf gelangten wir nach Bayreuth, wo ich zum erstenmal den Parsifal hörte. Noch in Rußland hatte ich in frühem Alter Tannhäuser und Lohengrin gehört, von denen ich begeistert war. Die Musik des Parsifal kam mir dagegen seltsam vor, der zweite Aufzug geradezu unangenehm. Ich kannte nur die Einleitung zum Parsifal, welche mich in Bayreuth zu Anfang überraschte durch den Reiz einer überirdischen Klangfülle. Während des ganzen folgenden ersten Aktes langweilte ich mich, sehnte mich fort wie aus einem Gefängnis und war glücklich, als ich während der Pause an die frische Luft entrinnen konnte, ja ich freute mich sogar, als ich einen Leierkasten hörte.
Der zweite Akt, mit Ausnahme einiger Episoden (dem Chor der schönen Jungfrauen Klingsors), marterte mich mit seinen scharfen Dissonanzen und rief in der Nacht sogar Albdrücke hervor. Im dritten Akt, ungeachtet meiner Müdigkeit, hatte ich große Freude an der Musik. Im allgemeinen behielt ich – wegen des Unvorbereitetseins auf den letzten Umbruch Wagners – einen schweren und unangenehmen Eindruck. Ich glaubte damals noch nicht an das Genie Wagners. Das geschah erst später – 1889 –, als ich mich auf Wagner vorbereitete, indem ich zusammen mit Rimskij-Korsakow die Proben zum Ring des Nibelungen besuchte. Zur gleichen Zeit wie bei mir vollzog sich auch bei ihm ein Umschwung in seiner Einstellung zugunsten Wagners.^[4]

Translation:

We went via Geneva to Bayreuth, where I heard Parsifal for the first time. Back in Russia, I had heard Tannhäuser and Lohengrin at an early age, and was enthusiastic about them. The music of Parsifal, on the other hand, seemed strange to me, and the second act was downright unpleasant. I only knew the overture of Parsifal, which surprised me at first in Bayreuth through the charm of its unearthly richness of sound. During the whole of the first act that followed, I was bored, longing to be away like from a prison, and was happy when I could escape into the fresh air during the interval; I was even delighted when I heard a hurdy-gurdy.
The second act, with the exception of a few episodes (the chorus of Klingsor's beautiful maidens), tortured me with its sharp dissonances and even evoked nightmares in the night. In the third act, despite my tiredness, I enjoyed the music very much. In general, unprepared as I was for Wagner's latest upheaval, I was left with a heavy and unpleasant impression. At the time I did not yet believe in Wagner's genius. That only happened later – in 1889 – when I prepared myself for Wagner by attending the rehearsals of the "Ring of the Nibelung" together with Rimsky-Korsakov. At the same time as me, he too underwent a turnabout of his attitude in favour of Wagner.

--Lambiam 18:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fantastic, thanks very much to all as usual for your helpful contributions. The performances at the Mariinsky Theatre in St. Petersburg were ~~conducted~~ organised by the singer/impresario Angelo Neumann (who knew the composer) with his travelling Wagner company. Neumann's company returned to Russia in 1891, this time staging The Ring in Moscow.[5] According to our Neumann article he conducted the first performances outside Bayreuth in Leipzig in 1878, where he also worked with Arthur Nikisch and the outstanding Anton Seidl,[6] who took the Ring to America but sadly died from food poisoning aged 47 in 1898 and never made any gramophone records. I concur with Glazunov in his judgement of Parsifal. I wasn't imagining the influences in Glazunov's The Sea: it was actually dedicated to Wagner, and even Rimsky-Korsakov said he had gone too far in adopting Wagner's musical idioms.[7] MinorProphet (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, it was not Neumann but Karl Muck who conducted the four presentations of the whole Ring cycle with the Mariinsky Orchestra [8]. Another cycle was given in Moscow at the command of the Tsar. The production was the "very last bow of the travel-worn, battered replica of the 1876 Bayreuth production which had been on the road since 1882." As an aside, Alexander Benois directed the first home-grown Ring in 1900 at the Mariinsky, and the film director Sergei Eisenstein directed Die Walküre at the Bolshoi in 1940.[9]

Ain't the tinternet amazing? Following this lead[10]^{: p. 105 note 707} I found this review: "Vermischte Mittheilungen und Notizen". Musikalisches Wochenblatt (in German). XX (10): 123–4 [pdf 138]. 28 February 1889.

There was a 120-strong orchestra, with players from the Mariinsky Theatre and the Ballet, and some from the Bayreuth orchestra; prices were 10,000 rubles per night. "Das Künstlerpersonal, welches Director Angelo Neumann mit sich führt, besteht aus den Damen: Therese Malten, Therese Vogl, de:Marie Basta, Cornelia van Zanten, Orlanda Biegler, Antonie Schreiber [from Braunschweig], de:Anna Henneberg, de:Margarethe Lehmann, Marie Rochelle [dramatic soprano who had an affair with Adolf Wallnöfer q.v.][11], Katharina Rosen [possibly as Sieglinde][12], Bertha Thomaschek-Hinrichsen [married to Hans Tomaschek q.v.](Volume 10 of Dictionary of German biography Thibaut - Zycha p. 21), Celia Raditz und de:Josefine Christen, ferner aus den HH. Heinrich Vogl [sang Loge in Rheingold premiere, & most other Wagner tenor roles], de:Johannes Elmblad [possibly Fafner], :de:Emil Hettstedt (disambig) [bass-baritone], de:Siegmund Lieban [high baritone], de:Adolf Wallnöfer [tenor, sang in 135 Rings with the "so-called «Wandernder Wagner-Theater»" from 1880, Hans Thomaschek [baritone, sang in Rheingold in 1883 under Anton Seidl][13], de:Felix Ehrl, Oskar Niemann [tenor] und Siegfried Tausseg." The sets were by Carl Lautenschläger, originator of the first revolving stage in Europe.[14][15] Thanks again all for your impetus (impeti?) which helped me find some answers. :>MinorProphet (talk) 09:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

June 22[edit]

Demographics of sport fans in Fiji[edit]

Sport in Fiji addresses this question, but very briefly (the third sentence of the introduction) and without citation.

During a recent conversation with an Indian man from Fiji, I learnt that cricket has a non-trivial following in the country. Is the sport dominated by Indians, or does it have a significant following among Polynesians, too? I was strongly tempted to ask him, but being aware of the country's recent political history, I figured it was safest to say nothing. Nyttend (talk) 11:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is cricket connected with politics in Fiji? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pope/Catholic, Bears/woods memes spring to mind. MinorProphet (talk)

Bugs, I'm guessing that it's not directly related, but wondering if it might be tangentially related. The issue is the political effects of the country's deep racial/ethnic/cultural divide between Indians and Fijians; when talking with people from Fiji, I've always avoided mentioning anything directly related to that. If the United States had a much larger black population and a recent history of race-based military coups, and if I were a visitor from overseas, I wouldn't go around asking Americans about racial matters, even innocuous things like "do blacks and whites tend to follow the same sports". Nyttend (talk) 09:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, you really wanted to ask him about race, more than about cricket? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About the interaction between race and sport, thus the header for this section. Nyttend (talk) 09:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at Fiji national cricket team#Current squad and Fiji national rugby league team#Current squad. What do you think? Beware of stereotyping, but not many Khans and Kumars play rugger at the national level.... Being a bold sort of person, I would have asked your interlocutor whether he thought Frank Bainimarama should be in prison. MinorProphet (talk) 20:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 23[edit]

LittleBigPlanet (2009 video game)[edit]

What was the fate of the online servers for the 2009 version of LittleBigPlanet, and if it is no longer active, when did it shut down? –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 06:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 25[edit]

Get along little dogies[edit]

In this song, "dogies" means motherless calves. But many people make the mistake of thinking it means puppy dogs. Is this mistake really common?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dogie is spelled and pronounced differently from doggy, so I don't think the mistake would be any more common than confusion between, say, bogie and boggy etc. Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I (elderly Brit, familiar with the song) have never encountered this misunderstanding, but then how often would it be revealed – cowboy-song lyrics are not often a topic of conversation around these here parts. What's your basis for saying "many people make the mistake . . ."? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 15:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When have you heard it pronounced "doggy"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:11, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 'Mac' (Harry McClintock) "Victor" 78 V-40016-B has has "Get Along, Little Doggies" on the label. His pronunciation is, to my ears, somewhere between what I would write as "dogies" and "doggies". DuncanHill (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Dogie" isn't a word most people are familiar with. It would be easy for someone seeing the lyrics (or having the word spelt for them after hearing the song) to wonder why "doggy" was being mispelled and mispronounced in the song and what dogs had to do with cowboys and such. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weird side note. I am an American, but "spelt" seemed better for this particular usage than "spelled" or "spelled out". It's a weird case of using a more often British/Commonwealth spelling in a specific context in an American text. I've noticed that there are specific contexts where I use "amongst" instead of "among" as well. Is this just me? Is this a general Southern US thing (being as I am from NC)? -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sign outside a pet store selling dachshunds: "Get a long little doggy!" Not great, perhaps, but it was funny to me when I heard it forty years ago. I think Khajidha has it right: dogie is not a word that people use much any more. I suspect people encountering it for the first time assume it's humorously equating cattle with something much smaller. Matt Deres (talk) 17:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So far we have only had speculations and suspicions. What actual evidence is there that "many people" really do think it means "puppy dogs" rather than some kind of cattle? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 18:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With the declining popularity of Westerns, I doubt that many people have even heard it uttered. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My wife likes to make the "long little dogie" joke anytime she encounters such a canine. Most people give blank looks. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 28[edit]

Woodstock performers dying fairly soon[edit]

As is well-known, three musicians performing at Woodstock died one year after the event, and some three years later another, all at a specific age. It would be interesting to compare them to all deaths of Woodstock performers, but it is not easy to get a list - is there one? Did even any other musicians die in timely years after the event (or even faster)? --KnightMove (talk) 13:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Woodstock#Artists has a list of linked performers, so it should be pretty easy to check. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed I have checked for the easy cases, but e.g. for Sweetwater (band) it's hard to find a full list of members, and so it is to find the biographical data for the known members. Hard cases like this sum up significantly. So I hope someone may have read a book or something explicitly adressing this question. --KnightMove (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's a "timely year" to die? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:23, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One of the next few years (not specified, but not many) after the event. Honestly I don't know how to express this in English correctly. --KnightMove (talk) 15:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, we should omit all performers who met an untimely demise. --Lambiam 19:39, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Checking further, I have found this page answering my question mostly, with a few gaps. --KnightMove (talk) 15:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kelson[edit]

why people are not talking to be better than any other hand right now Look at the end of the year!!!!! 41.122.85.118 (talk) 18:32, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your question is incomprehensible. If you are not a chatbot, please specify who or what this "Kelson" is and what you want to know. Please note that, as it says at the top of this page, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 19:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the IP is thinking of Keelson. Though the question still makes no sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 29[edit]