Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
![]() |
|
Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
|
Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article | In Progress | Instantwatym (t) | 8 days, 3 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 21 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 21 hours |
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV | In Progress | Avi8tor (t) | 6 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 hours |
Arecibo message | Resolved | 67.149.172.22 (t) | 4 days, | Kovcszaln6 (t) | 1 days, 7 hours | Kovcszaln6 (t) | 1 days, 7 hours |
Killing of Laken Riley | Closed | Jonathan f1 (t) | 3 days, 6 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 23 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 23 hours |
shakshuka | New | LEvalyn (t) | 1 days, 22 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 9 hours | LEvalyn (t) | 1 days, 7 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 01:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | If this page has been recently modified, it may not reflect the most recent changes. Please purge this page to view the most recent changes. |
Current disputes[edit]
Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article[edit]
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Instantwatym (talk · contribs)
- theWikiholic (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Myself and another editor by the username theWikiholic have been involved in an ongoing dispute regarding total sales of artist Chris Brown on the following article: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Brown. The issue has already been discussed on the article talk page and in an ANI discussion started by theWikiholic (https://en.chped.com/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1221291435#Usage_of_WP:Circular_sources_and_Disruptive_editing_to_promote_inflated_record_sales_on_Chris_Brown's_page). Our positions on this dispute are articulated well on the ANI discussion; as well as our reasons for disagreement. And there is no consensus either way.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
- Talk page discussion started by myself on the article page: https://en.chped.com/wiki/Talk:Chris_Brown
- ANI discussion started by theWikiholic: https://en.chped.com/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1221291435#Usage_of_WP:Circular_sources_and_Disruptive_editing_to_promote_inflated_record_sales_on_Chris_Brown's_page)
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Involve other neutral editors with familiarity of music certifications and sales to outline whether or not certifications equate to sales. If not, outline if total certified units (which in and of themselves are not a matter of dispute but rather a fact) can be simply be reported as certified units as opposed to sales in articles (e.g., Brown has certified ___ million units worldwide, as opposed to saying Brown has sold ___ million units worldwide based on his certifications).
Summary of dispute by Instantwatym[edit]
Summary of dispute by theWikiholic[edit]
Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article[edit]
- Volunteer note: As suggested at ANI, I think you should consider an RfC. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 11:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statement by volunteer (Chris Brown)[edit]
Various editors have said that a Request for Comments may be the best way to resolve this dispute. Preliminary discussion may determine whether an RFC will be used. Please read DRN Rule A. Do the editors agree to moderated discussion subject to these rules? The purpose of dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia. Will each editor please state, concisely, what they want to change in the encyclopedia, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement 0.5 by volunteer (Chris Brown)[edit]
Three days ago, I asked two questions, but the questions have not been answered. I will revise and restate the first question. Are the editors interested in moderated discussion subject to DRN Rule D? Chris Brown is a living person, and biographies of living persons are a contentious topic. If you agree to moderated discussion, you are agreeing that the procedures for contentious topics apply to any conduct issues. Second, please specify what in the article you want to change, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. It is not necessary and is not helpful to wait until your edit-warring blocks expire. If you want moderated discussion, please answer. If you want this dispute resolved by an RFC, you can request moderated discussion, and the moderator will assist in writing the RFC.
After edit-warring and being blocked, it is time for the editors to work with a moderator to resolve a content issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Chris Brown)[edit]
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV[edit]
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Peugeot 505 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Peugeot 5CV (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
When it was founded, Wikipedia had many discussions in the early years to figure out what units to include or not include in articles, A compromise resulted in the USA and the UK having different primary units from the rest of the world, which seemed like a reasonable compromise. see Wikipedia:Measurements Debate. Editor Mr.choppers seems to think the MOS does not apply because a certain unit was used when a vehicle was initially sold, regardless of the wording in the Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Primary Unit.
This problem goes back years, with Mr.choppers reverting every edit I make to do with which unit is primary. This time it stems from editing Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV, Mercedes-Benz Actros and numerous other vehicles going back years, I’d like a decision on what constitutes the primary unit.
The next disagreement.
The UK and the USA have received exemptions for strong national ties, which no other country has! But what is the criteria for “strong”, it seems to me that any ties to the USA or the UK are classed as strong national ties even if other editors say they may be weak or trivial. In the case of the Peugeot 505, it was exported to the USA and Australia so how do we get strong national ties to the USA? It is a French designed and manufactured car!
The Manual of Style is apparently interpreted differently by different editors and needs clarifying. Is a strong national tie 50% or more than 50%? Who decides? Let’s take Tesla, whose cars are made in the USA, China and Germany, all units used in design and manufacture are SI units, so which country has strong ties and which units are primary? Well it is a Company headquartered in the USA, so that would give strong national ties.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Peugeot_505 Units of Measurement.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
The manual of style states three options: In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United States and the UK. In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units. Can an editor pick and choose something else because of the ambiguity of the remaining wording regardless of the statement "will be SI units"?
Summary of dispute by Mr.choppers[edit]
The issue is that there are two kinds of horsepower, metric and non-metric. Most of the world (Europe, Japan, Latin America) uses metric hp, US and UK and some other english-speaking countries uses imperial hp, and a few countries like New Zealand, Asutralia, and South Africa have switched over to SI. There is no recognized standard for how to distinguish metric and non-metric hp (some use the German abbreviation PS for metric hp, but this is somewhat inappropriate for French or Italian cars, for instance). The definitions of these units are very similar, which often makes it hard to tell which unit is being used - sometimes you can tell from context. Non-english sources are almost certainly using metric hp. Here are the conversions, showing how close these units are:
- {{convert|100|hp-metric|kW|2}} 100 metric horsepower (73.55 kW)
- {{convert|100|bhp|kW|2}} 100 brake horsepower (74.57 kW)
While many countries have officially switched to SI (kilowatts) over the last several decades, this process is by no means complete. Nearly all references, all magazines, all journals, and most manufacturers have held on to metric hp and it is still the primary unit in many situations and markets. I will be happy to provide links and examples if needed, but will limit myself to VW chairman Ferdinand Piëch laying down a target number of 1,001 metric horsepower (736 kW; 987 bhp) for the Bugatti Veyron in 2001. Metric hp is current, it is used industry wide, and I would argue that it remains the most commonly used unit worldwide outside of insurance companies and government offices.
Don't get me wrong, though - I do not want metric hp to be the prime unit across Wikipedia. Kilowatts are the default lead unit for most cars of the last two-three decades, while imperial horsepower are still dominant in UK and US.
What I recommend is that we always lead with the appropriate unit, instead of using a one-size-fits-all method. The appropriate unit is typically the one used in the car's home market when it was built, or the one used in the majority of reliable sources. It is rare that there is any conflict - the Peugeot 5CV, for instance, was built five decades before there was any thought to use kilowatts. Peugeot uses metric hp to describe it. The US-market Peugeot 505 is a bit less clear; for me, what matters is that the engines were heavily re-engineered for the US market, with federalized cars also receiving different sheet metal and a significant number of other technical changes. Again, all references for the US Peugeot 505 uses imperial hp to describe the car, from factory manuals to period articles to current writings about it.
I am not entirely sure what Avi8tor wants to have changed, but describing a French car from the 1920s using kilowatts is anachronistic and in contradiction to MOS since it contradicts the units used in all reliable sources. There are always edge cases, like the US-market Peugeot 505, but those situations can and should be discussed. Avi8tor also has a problem getting metric v imperial hp mixed up with horsepower ratings systems like DIN vs SAE, gross versus net, and often drags in tax horsepower (which does not directly relate to power outputs) as well. Avi8tor has introduced factual errors, like here, where he carelessly changed the output from 110hp/81kW to 109hp/81kW. Minor to some, but still a factual error. Sorry about dragging you all into the bewildering world of horsepower... Mr.choppers | ✎ 13:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Mr.choppers is quick to blame me for something I did not do. As you can see from his reversion, the stated value prior to my convert template inclusion was hp & kW, He was happy with those the day before with a previous edit until I got involved, I chose kW as the primary unit. You didn't like what I'd done and changed the convert template to metric-hp and kW. Neglecting to follow the manual of style for a European Vehicle which would be kW & PS or metric horsepower, whatever you want to call it. The difference between the two units is about 1 horse. Avi8tor (talk) 15:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- I just realized that Avi8tor cherry-picked from the MOS above, so here is the relevant text as it applies to older automobiles:
In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units (such as kilograms), non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.)
I have shared this sentence with them on numerous occasions but it remains unacknowledged. Mr.choppers | ✎ 13:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV discussion[edit]
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editor on the user talk page. A statement on the article talk page is not sufficient. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - The template that opens a case does not automatically notify the other editor. It appears that the filing editor reasonably thought that it did, but it doesn't do that. The filing editor must do that manually. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Now done Avi8tor (talk) 10:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]
Are the editors interested in moderated discussion, subject to DRN Rule A? If so, I will ask each of the editors to start off by stating what they want to change in the article, or what they want to change that another editor wants to leave the same. I understand that one issue has to do with the units of power. Are there any other content issues?
If you are citing the Manual of Style, please state exactly what section in the MOS you are citing, just so that we don't have confusion about what rulebook is being used. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- The reference is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Units of measurement/Unit choice and order. Shortcut MOS:UNIT or MOS:UNITS about halfway down the page.
- This debate in a nutshell is how we interpret the MOS. I see "In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units", Mr.choppers sees "or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.". Sources can be cherry picked depending on what country they are from. USA all imperial, Australia all SI. I live in France, the owners manual for my two cars give power in kW only, as do owners manuals in the UK. Mr Choppers live in the USA so he'd prefer NON SI units worldwide. I follow the MOS and place SI units primary for countries outside the USA and UK. The MOS needs to be fixed to remove the ambiguity. Less than 50% of Wikipedia users are from the US or UK, all those other countries use SI. Wikipedia is for an international audience. All owners manuals for cars in Europe (including the UK) have kW for Power. I can send a copy of that page. Avi8tor (talk) 04:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]
First statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]
I will ask two questions that I have already asked, but that were not answered directly. First, do you agree to take part in moderated discussion, subject to DRN Rule A? Please read it (again, if you have already read it). Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions, and you will address your answers to me and to the community. Be civil and concise. Participation in moderated discussion is voluntary, and it will not continue unless the editors agree to the rules. Second, please state briefly what you want to change in the article, and where, or what you want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. If you want to change the units of measure of the power, specify all of the locations that you want to change. Do not, at this time, explain why, only what you want. We can discuss why later. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]
1) Of course. 2) I want the units of power to reflect the units used in reliable sources on the topic. For the Peugeot 505, that is kW/metric-hp (I would prefer to lead with metric-hp but it doesn't really matter) for all markets outside of North America, for the federalized cars I believe it should be non-metric hp and kW. This was the existing state of the article until 31 May 2024. Mr.choppers | ✎ 12:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
1. Yes.
2. I think the manual of style needs to be more specific in that the primary unit outside the USA should be SI as stated in the MOS. Consistency of the displayed unit is important. The unit/s following can be non SI. This would include RPM, hands or whatever is used in that field. I believe this way every English speaker on the planet will understand the unit they are used to. Avi8tor (talk) 12:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Peugeot)[edit]
The Peugeot 505 article currently lists the power for all engines primarily in CV, which is metric horsepower, and also provides kW, and hp (imperial hp). The Peugeot 5CV article lists power primarily in hp, and also in kW. The SI unit of power is kW (kilowatts). (That is, the watt is the basic SI unit of power, and automobiles have power that can be measured in kilowatts.) I am asking that any editor who wants to list the power primarily either in CV or in hp should provide a reason. One editor referred to cars made for the US market, for which hp is the standard unit of power, but I see no mention in the article of any cars that were specifically made for the US market. So my question is what reason is there for using any measure other than kW as the primary measure.
Are there any specific suggestions for how the MOS should be changed or clarified?
Are there any other issues than the units of power? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (Peugeot)[edit]
Arecibo message[edit]
![]() | Resolved. The editors have agreed to keep the heading intact. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 18:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
---|
Killing of Laken Riley[edit]
![]() | Closed as pending at the neutral point of view noticeboard. The instructions for DRN say: We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums. As another editor says, it is under discussion at the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard. Let the discussion at NPOVN continue for a few more days. If the discussion fizzles out inconclusively or is closed as having been inconclusive, discussion can then be started here. In the meantime, you may optionally take part in the discussion at NPOVN. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
---|
shakshuka[edit]
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
I think the article needs a full rewrite, since I would like to make it a GA. M.Bitton consistently reverts changes to the article.
I attempted a range of improvements on April 18, April 19, May 12, May 21, June 14, and June 25. As you can see, I have tried different approaches each time, but continue to be reverted. This diff shows how little has changed.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
- Talk:Shakshouka#Beginning_again_from_a_new_starting_place?
- Talk:Shakshouka#Article_still_has_important_problems
- Talk:Shakshouka#The_article_needs_a_revised_lead
- Talk:Shakshouka#Note_on_etymology
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
At the very least, maybe we could agree on a to-do list of the article's current problems. A more narrow ambition, perhaps we could resolve the article's coverage of etymology. Pipe dream, a better assessment of how to handle the dish's origin?
Summary of dispute by M.Bitton[edit]
shakshuka discussion[edit]
- Note - The filing party has not notified the other editor on their user talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Oops! My apologies, somehow I thought the wizard would do that. Notifying now. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 18:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)